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@Certanly not Stuff

if the existence of prison is fine to you, then stop shitting

@Certanly not Stuff

Again using sources from wikipedia where there're just bunch of lies and anti-communist propaganda huh?

These pages are stupid as hell. lemme give it a quick crackdown.

"Beginning with the Red August of Beijing, massacres took place nationwide" - your so-called "evidence"

who? what part of the people is the massacred ones? what part is the one massacring the other one? is the red guard united or separated?

"tens of millions of people were persecuted" - your so-called "evidence"

who persecuted these people? the revolting people or those 保守派 in power?

Local officials were fearful of Anti-Rightist Campaigns and they competed to fulfill or over-fulfill quotas which were based on Mao's exaggerated claims - your so-called "evidence"

this is false. the one in charge is not Mao but Liu at that time. Mao's words can hardly go out of his house (letters like 党内通信 ——建议召开县五级干部大会 were blocked, speeches addressed to the officials like 在第二次郑州会议上的讲话 were hardly accepted by any of the officials). the real cause of the actions of the local officials was Liu's leadership, this can be easily informed of from Liu's quote:

搞大跃进就象吹气球一样，气吹足了 气球就飞起来了。把全国的老百姓都吹起来了，大跃进就更加轰轰烈烈了。国务院的工作 离不开你，我到全国各地替你去吹好了。 - Liu Shaoqi talking to Zhou Enlai, June 1958

对，就要这样干，今年跃进，明年 再来一个大跃进，后年还要大跃进，只要不断地跃进，我们赶英国就快了 。- Liu Shaoqi's speech at Mt. Shijing, July 1958

一万斤是不是少了点，能不能搞它个三万斤、五万斤？这样可以 更好的鼓励全国人民大跃进的积极性么。- Liu Shaoqi talking to Wang Renzhong, August 1958

In comparison, Mao has stated the main problem not only once, calling the government officials to "tell the truth, don't blow up the trumpet"

包产能包多少，就讲能包多少，不讲 经过努力实在做不到而又勉强讲做得到的假话。收获多少，就讲多 少，不可以讲不合实际情况的假话。对各项增产措施......每项都不可讲假话。老实人，敢讲真话的人，归根到底，于 人民事业有利，于自己也不吃亏。爱讲假话的人，一害人民，二害自 己，总是吃亏。应当说，有许多假话是上面一些人强迫出来的......使下面很难办。因此，干劲一定要有，假话一定不可讲。  - 党内通信——致六级干部的公开信

If you write "I used wikipedia as source" in your paper, let's see how hard your professor will curse you, oh wait, maybe you never wrote one yourself, that's sad.

if you're such a weak sheep, why not read the files CIA wrote when they were investigating in China, and see if they said there was even a famine?

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/DOC_0001098172.pdf

I've studied this part of history for at least 4 years, reading countless statistics, analyzing the power generation and average food amount, and analyzed the conflicts of interests hidden in the countless material that were directly written by some of those who participated in it. your struggle on this one only shows your ignorance and stupidity, and how easy it is to decieve you with one page filled with false information.

In these pages there're zero evidence from statistics, all essays from us and hongkong university, so-callled "evidence" from site of rumor and newspaper. it doesnt sound objective and realistic to me. does it sound objective to you? what kind of moron would fall for that?

You can literally just search some of the nouns i mentioned up there and read about what really happened. The contemporary sources are there, but of course you won't read them, because you're a lazy and gross person who just likes to eat what the mass media industry of capitalism vomits out. 

if you're denying you should read contemporary statistics from both sides, this is the end of the discussion. Bruh literally waging war against the basic measure of history learning.

Fact No.1: The famine of the great leap forward was caused not by communists, but by Liu Shaoqqi and Deng Xiaoping, the infamous capitalists in CCP (yeah there were capitalists in that party, they were called "走资派" and existed for a very long time), who ran the country like a state-owned company. The tasks of this movement delivered to local departments are based on profits and not the quality of people's lives, which soon led to corruption, starvation, and bureaucracy. Things didn't turn out well and people's life went hell.

Meanwhile, the communists in the party were struggling with the capitalists, they wrote many letters instructing how to improve the situation and end the famine, but all those letters were blocked and never reached the hands of the workers and farmers because the capitalists were not happy about it, until Mao Zedong wrote a letter (党内通信——致六级干部的公开信), directly bypassing the national information agency and connected the communists with local workers and farmers. The situation then had an improvement.

Liu Shaoqi was the chairman of China at that time, not Mao.

Fact No.2: Liu Shaoqi got overthrown by the people during the Cultural Revolution for the crimes he committed back in the great leap forward, because the people were given the power to fight against local government. There was that famous quote of Mao, "Revolution is no crime, to rebel is justified (革命无罪，造反有理)."

The party gave the people the power to overthrow authorities, so what do you expect those authorities, who were capitalists united around Liu Shaoqi to do? You think they'll just sit there and accept their fate? Of course not, they will suppress those who dare to revolt at all costs.

The revolutionary people were called "造反派", while the claws of the capitalists were called "保守派" (i.e. "联动" "西纠"). During the cultural revolution, there were countless violent conflicts between 造反派 and 保守派.  And 保守派 did many mass executions of 造反派 with the intention of resisting the cultural revolution from taking their crowns, because they were the majority of those in power. There is only mass execution of communists made by capitalists, not of capitalists made by communists.

History is two-sided, subjectively-described, complex, having many turns, and with many conflicts of interest. It is pushed forward by the wills of groups of people, and can't be explained with "oh l00k a D1ct4t0r". If you don't understand this, maybe you have not reached the intellectual standard to meddle in such discussion.

call american prisons camps before you're making stupid words out of thin air

the goal your're claiming is unreal. the construction of democracy and the attempt of breaking the cycle of history is solid and what the people in cccp and china knew that they benefit from it because they had the power. your analogy is stupid.

now you only listen to half of the words and try to twist my meaning. read statistics and contemporary material from both sides. do you believe that the allied force carried out genocide when nazi won the ww2 and claimed that? no? then read numbers and what really happened that time. 

not only this, i point out that your so-called evidence is nothing but propaganda and rumor. zero evidence from statistics and all essays from us and hongkong university? "evidence" from site of rumor and newspaper? doesnt sound objective to me. does it sound objective to you? i guess you like eating stuff others vomited out, gross.

my claiming is more like "The allies were against Hitler, therefore the image of allied forces portrayed in Hitler's mass media is false." and "German official statistics' numbers had said that the Holocaust happened, which helps prove it true". 

"The allies were against Hitler, therefore their evidence of the Holocaust doesn't count" "Pro-Hitler books say the Holocaust never happened, this proves it's a hoax" are however both what you are claiming. i have been saying that you should check the materials on both sides. I acknowledge that there was state empowerment in cccp but there is also social justice and Stalin helped with constructing that democracy.  I also acknowledge the casualty of the cultural revolution but I acknowledge Mao's effort of mobilizing a democratic down-top movement to end "the cycle of history" (if you know what that is lmfao).

you are the one who only uses one-sided materials just like, according to you, "someone who defend hitler". you are not qualified to put such accuse on me when you're the one who's been doing it.

you're talking to yourself atm. i pointed out rational reasons why the sources are not reliable and one-sided. you never pointed out why they are reliable. not only this. you just said the books i named are propaganda with no solid evidence. everyone knows that a deny to the evidence with reasoning is far more objective than spread nonsense with "y0u jUSt 1gN0re the 3v1D3nCe y0u DonT lik3". you are not restoring fairness in any of the ways, you are inventing it. again i guess the "books" wikipedia used are "evidence" while the books i named are, according to you, propagandas, is that how you define objectiveness?

yeah what a good source, 30 new york times pages, more than 48 anti-communism propagandas, all essays from american and hong-kong universities and barely any source from mainland china, zero sources on mainland china statistics. three versions of the party shitting on mao after mao's death because mao pissed them off so hard by enabling the people to overthrow them. they even use 凤凰网, the infamous site of rumors as sources. i guess the "books" wikipedia used is objective and the books i named are propaganda, is that how you define objectiveness?

you call wikipedia valid resources? at least download some solid pdf books, like "stalin's works" "democracy and terror of stalin era" "the unknown cultural revolution" lmfao, i went even further reading raw materials like cccp's statics around stalin era, and comtemporary materials written by lin biao and wang hong wen if you know who they are. what you're doing is no better than learning history from youtube. you're like reading materials made by hitler to learn about america. is that your literacy of learning history? reading things that people vomited out instead of reading contemporary material that comes from both sides? did you sleep over your history lessons or are you taught in an american school? or maybe you're just sttubborn because you like to defend capitalism by shitting on communism even at the cost of showing off your "intelligence". ffs leave me alone. i said i want a more intellectual discussion on this, at least with someone who has the basic literacy of learning history, not with a fucking barbarian.

the stalin constitution literally gave the workers power of free speeches to criticize government activities and bureaucrats and even remove them from their position. anyone who dont let the people talk will immediately be purged from the party. there're tons of example cases in history that you can find. mao went even further allowing the people to overthrow local government and party section by fucking force(yeah people organized armies to fight against official troops), waging war against corruption and priviledge by mobilizing a down-top revolution. this is just what cultural revolution was all about. they executing oppositions? here's a historical fact. stalin proposed to strengthen the power of oppositions in the party, so that there'll be more chance for the party to review itself and fix mistakes. the central committe which denied 70% of stalin's proposals, denied it too with a democratic voting. they executing dissidents?what the fuck? are you living in an alternative universe? if you dont read please stop sending nonsense messages. it only shows your ignorance and stupidity.

gulag is a fucking prison. most of they all did something to get into there. fact no.1, the number of imprisoned people in gulag is the same as the contemporary number of imprisoned people in america. fact no.2, there're forced labour in american prisons of course.

now go call america communist or having forced labour camps

and you again are puttin words that i didnt say into my mouth. you need to revisit your high school.

go check who actually led the great leap forward and who proposed to stop the national purge. ffs just read. or are you anti-intellectual? does it burn when books touch your hand?

u actually succeed in driving me mad. I want some intellectual discussion on this, not some barbarian kicking down the door and rushing in to show the poop he just scooped from his brains. just block me if you hate reading materials

i never said that. you're not making any sense. greed also does not equal to a strong, solid system that is based on profit and employment, capitalism does.

stalin and mao are both fighting against genocide in their position if you really know what's going on. mao is the direct reason why china didnt turn into a shithole like cambodia. go read their letters and proposals and stop eating things that invested youtubers vomit out. you're literally one typical brainwashed by the mass media industry of capitalism. ffs at least search "true stalin" or "stalin: what they don't teach you in school" on youtube and read resources that come from another side, then stop being a one-sided maniac like a nazi.

you act as if the profit-oriented production mode and the employment system isn't established at that time. what an idiot

bro got his lung cancer cured in gulag and wrote a book about being tortured in it

we miss FDR.

the original statement was bad anyway, being based on so-called ethics. the most basic reason capitalism isnt human nature is that this system was literally grown just two centuries ago. it wasnt there in the first place, and human has no reason to stop there.

apparently stalin is a necromancer who murdered nearly 42% of the population and defeated h*tler by summoning an army of zombies and skeletons

your "capitalism" is post-cold-war capitalism, where capitalists dare not to retrieve the power they gave to the union and the working class, becase during the cw, the existence of cccp forced them to share their power so that they dont look like a bunch of animals, that they'll lose the popularity and further the cold war.

the capitalist production mode is easily conceived around renaissance, executed around the glorious revolution, the french revolution and the war of independence, and your "colonialism" IS a result of capitalism because it's crucial for capitalism to expand the "free market" to sell the goods.

you don't see the law of causation in it? go back to an american factory before cccp's establishment and see what kind of shithole the workers' life is.

communist policies? the line "ccp is consist of workers and peasants" has been a joke in china for decades. the party's serving the the bourgeoisie ever since mao's death. what's left that is still communist?

if you're well read, you should know that communism describes a futuristic state where productivity and technology are highly developed, resources are extremely abundant that currency serves no purpose then becaues everything will be as much as air. it's an inference and conception of the future world. working in the fields with pol pot is nowhere near communism. you're saying that you're well read, but it's put down in black and white in both Das Kapital and the manifesto. i wonder if you're a victim of pirated books.

if you're blaming socialism for the casualty, mao got f**king under house arrest during the great leap forward and cant do shit, and 70% of stalin's proposal are denied by the central board, including four applications for resignation. and i believe you don't know anything about it and will keep rabbling about dictatorship, because you lack the basic learning literacy of history, that you should learn it by reading contemporary material that comes from both sides, not from youtube, wikipedia, american textbook or from a post-cold-war scribbler. imagine if the axis won the ww2 and how will they describe the allied in their mass media.

back onto the ccp part. say, which part of china's policy is communist? i dare you can't even tell one.

also, communist party can't "partake in capitalism". little do you know about capitalism nor communism eh? go read some actual books, stop learning history from youtube and wikipedia, posting random sources copied from these so-called "objective" websides.

a socialist state means constant revolution, breaking down the system time after time like lenin and stalin's cccp (top-down) and mao's china (down-top). if they embrace the free market and base their administration on capital power, they either turn into a capitalist party or got cracked down and replaced by foreign power.

in ccp's case they've turned into a capitalist party since 1978. a clear evidence is that you can see some provinces declearing their bankrupcy.

If you know anything about basic history, you should've known that capitalism killed much much more than communism on the lands of native Americans, English workers, Ching dynasty and nowadays Africa. The blood caused by Communism can't match an inch of it.